[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:05:27
If you feel not to speak up and say, Oh, no! But my kids

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:05:31
I would be good with those 2 options, also, maybe recording like the Q. A.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:05:35
At the end, after our slides are done, would be fine too.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:05:40
Yeah, with our our, I think that's a good option if they're recording the Q a.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:05:47
As sort of a way around that I'm not really sure exactly how to.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:05:51
Yeah, ensure the privacy of of the of a full recording, you know.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:05:57
Cause I imagine we we'd see if anyone would want access to it and and provide them access to that link.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:06:01
But I know that that's not that secure, probably. So.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:06:05
Yeah, if you're okay with the Transcript plus recording the Q. A.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:06:10
Would that be her her folks comfortable with that

[Michael Ruderman] 11:06:14
Okay. Great suggestion. Let's let's do it.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:06:18
I've started the transcript. So I'll just save that after after.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:06:24
Okay. What was I gonna say? Oh, yeah. I think order. I haven't actually talked to anyone about the order and sort of randomly picked.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:06:33
Are people comfortable if we start with Dr. Brown and Bragg, and then moved to Pamela Bear and then start a clicker as our order for today.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:06:43
Okay. And I've included great bios of our our speakers on our website.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:06:49
If you're interested at all. And most people just have to say, encourage you to to take a look at those bios and check out their work because they do some really great work.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:06:57
So, yeah, with that, why don't we get started? Our first speaker for today is Dr.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:07:02
Brownwind, bride, Dr. Rag is a postdoc for fellow here in New York, at the center for refugee studies.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:07:09
Currently not in Calgary, Alberta, though I've learned her work broadly, looks at gendered and racialized dimensions of so called integration of newcomers in Canada.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:07:20
Her current research explores the extended precarity experienced by migrants and refugees in the Canadian meat packing industry.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:07:27
She's also working on the book surrounding ethnographic work.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:07:30
But Syria and mothers and their children in the early years of settlement in Canada.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:07:35
So yes, and pertinent to today's conversation.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:07:38
She's also mom to 2 boys, Henry and Robin.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:07:41
And with that very brief intro, let's give a warm virtual welcome to Dr.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:07:46
Brownman, Rag

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:07:47
Hi, everyone, thank you. I'm gonna try and share my screen

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:07:55
It always feels a bit

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:08:00
Alright. Good. Great. Okay. So, thanks to Mike and Mikayla for inviting me today, I am really grateful to be included.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:08:12
I wish I had attended a talk like this before.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:08:16
I had children. I wish I did a lot of things before I had children, but as I was reflecting on the talk, I realized, you know parenting and and scholarship to some degree are both highly subjective experiences, so I'm gonna be speaking about my experience and I don't wanna

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:08:36
Presume that that's gonna be anybody else's experience.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:08:39
I also want to acknowledge. You know I have considerable privileges when talking about parenting and talking about scholarship as well, which I hope I touch on social location kind of towards the end.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:08:50
And I'd like us to maybe think about that through our discussion leader.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:08:53
So I have tried to be both honest and transparent, but also so that comes with a little bit of vulnerability.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:09:00
So I'm just kind of putting that out there that I'm gonna be speaking about my challenges.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:09:06
And again, these are a personal sort of thing. And I put my email up here.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:09:09
Of course, if you have further questions, or want to connect, please do so I also put my Twitter handle, not to self promote.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:09:15
But I put this out on Twitter yesterday, cause I was saying I titled this the good, the bad, and the ugly, and I had a hard time coming up with the good, so I put it out to the twitter world, and there's actually a really great thread, of people talking about their experiences

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:09:29
Of parenting, and so if that, if you're looking for encouragement or positives, I I found it really inspiring, actually, which doesn't always happen been funny.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:09:40
So the good. My first point is that kids are great, and if you want to have kids, you should have kids.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:09:48
That's kind of, and that may not be applicable for that's a true in academia and outside.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:09:54
So this is a little video. It's a little cut up, but maybe it'll come through.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:09:59
But let me just see.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:10:00
Like a daddy. Watch it!

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:10:05
So that's my son Robin. He's just learned to walk.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:10:08
He's very into carrying books while he walks.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:10:12
That's his thing, and he's in his York swag, which I got from my very supportive postdoctoral supervisor.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:10:21
She sent me baby clothes when I had Robin. So that's part of a building community having support.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:10:26
Have, a have great supervisors and support out there, because you will need them in terms of the good.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:10:34
And my bio. Mike mentioned that my dissertation research and the book project I'm working on it revolves around former refugees.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:10:45
Now, Canadian permit residents or citizens who came from Syria, who are living in the early years of settlement in Canada, and my research was with families in in homes, with mums and kids, and at the I sort of went through that research without from being childless to getting pregnant

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:11:03
To having my first son, and some of that work has continued.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:11:05
Obviously, I'm not still actively doing research, but that I've remained engaged in that community.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:11:12
And what I, through that whole experience, and I was most of the folks that were involved in my research were also parenting.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:11:19
They already had many children, usually often they were pregnant, and in some cases they also, you know, had kids across the spectrum.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:11:29
So for me. It it gave me insights into my research that I did, would not have expected, and I think, in a way both like theoretical insights, but also sort of methods and approaches of working and ways of grounding my work, that I couldn't have expected before I had

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:11:47
My my first kid. So for me, that has been beneficial and unexpected I think it's also helped me become a more empathetic person.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:11:58
Especially in teaching and engaging with collaborators or community members.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:12:03
And really anyone I just find I like, you know, if people are show up and are sort of mostly dressed.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:12:11
I'm very impressed, because it's hard to do things with or without children.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:12:20
The last 3 years have been very challenging, and and so I think for me, I've just become a much more relaxed person, and how I interact with a lot of people.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:12:32
It's given me a lot more insight and compassion into what like, not what people are going through, but that people are always everyone's going through things.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:12:39
So that's helped. Obviously it. And this came up on Twitter.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:12:42
You know it helps you prioritize. It clarifies your goals.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:12:45
It makes you more efficient, not necessarily because of some like sort of self-helpy kind of thing.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:12:50
But you literally have no choice, because you have, you know, 1 h, and it's like what are you going to do with your precious hour of time, are you?

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:12:59
What's what's most important. And so that's how clarify those things for me.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:13:04
And obviously I'm much better able to work under what I would describe is extremely less than optimal conditions.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:13:13
So I finished my dissertation in 2,020, and defended in 2,020, without child like, we had our my first son in child care.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:13:20
He's for now he was one and a half at the time, about the same age as Robin in that video.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:13:25
So I was home without, and it was those early days of pandemic.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:13:28
There was no, there was nobody, there was no family support, there was no child care.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:13:34
There was just my partner, my son, and myself, and my dissertation, and and my partner works full time.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:13:40
So in that sense, like I used to have to, you know.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:13:44
Sit and quiet and have, like my tea, and the my, and now I can work.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:13:49
I can pretty much write and work anywhere, under any conditions. It's not great, but it it helps in that regard.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:13:56
So if that's important to you, and then a lot on Twitter came up like flexibility.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:13:59
People talk about the flexibility of academia. I think I've become so.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:14:04
I've been doing in the space for so long that I forget that we do have a much more flexible life than a lot of folks that have the stability of no more like 9 to 5 or other kind of job.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:14:14
But I also I also am critical of flexibility as a concept.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:14:20
So I would love to kind of think more about that. In the discussion what people other folks think about flexibility cause.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:14:26
Certainly last year on Matt leave with my one year old, or my under one year old, not leave.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:14:32
I found there was sort of a tyranny of flexibility.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:14:34
That kind of takes over in a way so to be discussed further.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:14:39
Okay, the bad. I think I have. So I have a 4 and a one year old.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:14:47
So I'm in the like under 5 0 to 5 age.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:14:50
I don't know about others, and like sleep is helpful.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:14:57
Or executive functioning. Sleep is important for things like deep thinking, reading, hard things, theory having conversations with adults, and those are things that like sleep is just something you don't get as much of, even if you have good sleep good sleepers, and I have pretty good sleepers and some people have very not good sleepers.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:15:22
And so sleep like it's just it got to be really real about sleep.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:15:26
It's a hard thing. And so I'm just being real about that.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:15:31
This is a photo of me with. When I had Covid I had got Covid last April we were super careful, but we, you know, doesn't matter.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:15:40
I got Covid, my son, my baby. The baby had covid, my 3 year old at the time, couldn't go to Daycare because he didn't have Covid, but he could have had Covid, and so like this photo is like you know, that's it.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:15:52
You're in it. You're in it a lot, and especially with the littles so sleeping.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:15:58
And in that way that's where I go with. It can be quite isolating, like you build community.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:16:03
You have family, you do what you can. Family, like, chosen or otherwise, around you, but at the end of the day parenting is a fairly isolating experience, especially with small children.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:16:15
And I would say also, being an early career researcher is an isolating and lonely experience.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:16:20
Even when you build community but I find as a postdoc you're kind of in this into like I had my first kid during my Phd.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:16:28
And that I found I was in much more of an institutional kind of space as a part of a Phd. Cohort.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:16:35
You're more connected in postdoc, especially pandemic.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:16:38
Postdoc has been is a bit more isolating.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:16:42
So I think. And maybe that's different. Again, the others can speak to this once.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:16:45
You're more if you are in a job. Actually, maybe it's less isolating.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:16:50
But scholarship inherently. You have to work hard to connect right and build community in that way.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:16:56
So it. Both of those things require some effort, and it can be hard to do that when you're not sleeping and sick, and have sick children, and these things cut up, and also the 1 point on this is that I do think in the post Covid world having sick kids is mean something quite a little bit different

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:17:16
Than I did pre covid. So you but both personally like you, may have like moral questions about taking sick kids places.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:17:26
That's important and real. But also you find, like nobody will take your sick kids.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:17:34
Nobody wants your sick kids, and that's like fair enough, again, I have a lot of we have pay, child care, and I have supportive family in town, and we have great community of people.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:17:42
But at the end of the day, when you have sick kids like they're yours, that kids and like, I don't want other people sick kids.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:17:49
So I get it. But that has really added complexity, and it also furthest things like isolation.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:17:54
I think so. Those are. That's the bad. Now the ugly is what I think of as like the institutional challenges that are specific to academia and specific to parent being a parent in academia.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:18:09
And so, you know, I heard this a lot. This came up on Twitter as well like there's no good time to have kids, and I think that that's true.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:18:19
That's true in your career. Like, if you're gonna have a career and you're gonna have a family that's always of reality to consider.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:18:27
I can't speak to other careers, but what I would say, based on my experience is I did find it less isolating and challenging.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:18:35
With my first son, who was bored when I was doing my just doing my Phd.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:18:39
So I was much more kind of in program and in a department, and I felt less pressure around like the timeline of getting a job.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:18:48
Whereas when I have my second, I was in my postdoc, and while I had a pay parental leaf through shirk, which was good, I never felt like the clock stopped.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:18:57
I felt like the work continued, and and it well, there are more mechanisms now, you know.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:19:05
Shirk, for example, asks you to include your career interruptions, and so on.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:19:10
I still feel like institutionally, there's and this is born out in research.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:19:17
There is like a pun. What's the word like?

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:19:20
There's a punishment right like a a tax for having kids and for taking time time off or not publishing as much.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:19:27
And so that has felt again. This is personal for me. This is felt more, much higher stakes being in a postdoc and on the job market with 2 kids than it did when I was in the Phd.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:19:40
Program so there is no good time. But it's it's what sort of where you want to take your career and what is important to you, and what you think you can kind of handle.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:19:51
I can't help it feeling, you know, that people on Twitter said. You know.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:19:56
Don't compare yourself to other people, and that's like the best advice in the world, but it's also sort of very challenging right?

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:20:01
Because you're literally on the job market comparing yourself to other people all the time and being compared to other people all the time.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:20:08
So that is just something to consider. And I think again it goes back to my first slide, like, if you want kids, you should have kids.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:20:16
But but it does. There are real institutional challenges.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:20:20
This goes without saying, or maybe it doesn't. But I want to be real with people like I have a shirk post doctoral fellowship, which is great to have, but the reality of the funding for postdoc and grad student like doctoral students as well, is completely out of step with the cost

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:20:40
Of living. This is probably obvious to folks, but I wanna mention it because I was so excited to get my post talk, and it is I'm I'm lucky.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:20:50
And I was lucky to have a parental leave, and I think it's good that Shirk has a pay per end to leave.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:20:55
Obviously then, that was the work of advocacy that got that.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:20:57
And so that's great. But the yeah, I I mean, I live in Alberta because I have family here, because my research is here.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:21:07
My community is here, but there's all no way that I could live in Toronto and pay for full time.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:21:14
Child care and pay for rent with my shirt, postdoc.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:21:19
It's about $3,200 a month.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:21:22
So again, I'm just being very real about it. It's there that just doesn't.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:21:26
It doesn't work. So again, privileges mitigate this.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:21:30
And what but when I say privilege, I want to be careful, because it's sort of by saying like, Oh, I'm so privileged!

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:21:35
I feel like we might take away the critical and justice lens that says like, if we don't address the funding issues that are facing early career researchers and postdoc or grad students.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:21:46
Then we're we're queue people out right because the people who can come in have certain kinds of advantages that allow them to be in so.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:21:55
And that's where I get to the various around social location.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:21:59
So I'm gonna wrap up by just talking about.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:22:00
A few strategies. So this is my 4 year old, Henry.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:22:04
He's so into dinosaurs. Although we've moved on to ocean animals.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:22:10
So one of the sort of weird benefits of having children is you learn a lot about things that you didn't know about, and you have to become like an expert in dinosaurs.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:22:22
And now, like sting, raise and sharks, and these kinds of things so obviously, I've been hinted at this a number of times, but really critical is to have community around you and community of people who are both like you need parents.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:22:37
You need other parents, and then you need other academics, and then you need other.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:22:42
You need people who are both parents and academics, and you need all 3, and then you need people who will like your kids when you don't like your kids and who will take them and give you a break.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:22:56
You, you just need community, whatever that looks like for you and for me.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:22:59
I found a lot of that in my community based research. So I find, like the folks that I do work with in community, which is a lot of where my room is grounded, have been much more supportive accommodating understanding, then sort of the institutional world, that being said, when I say, find

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:23:22
Allies like find people inside Academia. So my supervisor is beyond supportive, like beyond supportive.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:23:29
Just, be honest, but it also has encouraged and supported me to get the things done that I want to get done academically.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:23:36
So, and I would say, Look for those folks in unexpected places.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:23:39
My Doctoral supervisor was a childless man, who just is retiring, so he's at the end of his career.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:23:47
So, but he was incredibly supportive of my decision to have to start a family, to have kids and so unexpected like perhaps so don't assume that like, because someone has kids, they're going to be supportive.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:24:01
Or because someone doesn't. They're not like you have to.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:24:04
But you know, talk, interview their grad. Students talk to other people, find people in the institution that will support you and understand a little bit what you're going through, and if they haven't lived it themselves.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:24:16
I think you have to lower your expectations. Not just for the kind of scholar you you imagine you're gonna be, but also for the kind of parent you're gonna be like, you just have to take your take that off yourself and kinda just take it.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:24:34
I say, like one day at a time, you know. Just take a day by day, because it's yeah.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:24:39
Look, those expectations, and don't look like. Don't compare yourself to other people.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:24:45
Good luck I've started doing this thing in the last year.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:24:49
Take breaks of like parenting and work, so I cause before I was just parenting and working like trying to write papers, or read, or whatever.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:25:00
And now I've like created a third space, where I neither parent nor work on school stuff and school stuff postdoc stuff.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:25:08
And I found that to be very beneficial. So even if it's small for me like that's been essential, like I read for fun for the first time in like 10 years, I not the academic reading isn't fun, but different.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:25:26
I take the dog for a walk, I go to Yoga I try and do stuff that is just neither of those 2 things, because otherwise I sort of found like I was just not.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:25:36
It was great, and then find the pieces of work that give you the energy, and I think there's like lots of different pieces.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:25:47
So that's the prioritizing and clarifying for me.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:25:49
It's like, what is the work that's gonna bring me not bring me joy, but like you know, but like that is sustaining, that I feel is the most important that is connected to what I want to be doing more broadly beyond like getting the job in the career.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:26:06
So what is the work that's giving me energy? Because then I have energy for myself, for my family, for my kids, instead of just always doing the hardest thing because you can't do all of it anymore.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:26:20
So it's finding the pieces that are the most important.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:26:26
And that's that's everything for me.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 11:26:31
I'll stop there.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:26:38
That's great thanks for that. I always feel funny, not discussing, and you know, giving that a space in group right away.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:26:46
But let's let's move over to our second speaker, and we'll say discussion again. If you have any comments.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:26:50
Just note them down. Our next speaker is Dr. Pam Bayer, Dr.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:26:55
Bear is an activist, artist and educator who holds a Phd.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:27:00
In curriculum, teaching and learning from where they currently work.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:27:07
In teacher, education. So their current research program, reimagines, storytelling and performance as a collaborative approach to queer and trans pedagogy fans done a lot of really wonderful activists work with a variety of community organizations context, so I I encourage you to check that

[Michael Ruderman] 11:27:23
Out, her approach to arts, education centers, creative work to provoke ongoing.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:27:30
Social, cultural, and sometimes very personal conversations.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:27:35
Yeah. And again, with that brief intro, I'll pass the focus over to Dr.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:27:39
Pan, Bayer.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:27:40
Amazing. Thank you. And bronze thanks for starting us off.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:27:44
That was so validating to just witness your talk.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:27:48
The entire thing I was like. Yes, yes, yes, you just like I can't even I don't even know where to start, so I'm excited to to get into the discussion.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:28:00
The the discussion part of the the day. I even thinking about, you know, like jumping into your postdoc I also defended in 2,020, and so, jumping into your post, Doc.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:28:11
Already, I'm just amazed, like I have been sitting in remote kindergarten and remote grade.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:28:15
One over the past few years, while I try to support my kids through this wild time of okay, you've never used a computer before.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:28:22
Let me teach you how to do that, so you can attend your classes.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:28:28
So yeah, let me share my screen here, and I'll jump into what I have to say.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:28:31
But thank you so much for starting us off alright. Really exciting title we'll get to that later on.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:28:41
When I talk about being good enough. So this is good enough.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:28:45
Academia. Early Career Parenting there you go. That's my slide.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:28:51
So Hello, everyone, and thank you for inviting me here today.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:28:56
I'm just I'm excited to share a little bit of my journey now.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:29:00
Navigating Academia as a parent of young children. Let me set the scene.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:29:07
The year was 2018, and I was nearing the end of my maternity leave from my Phd.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:29:11
Program, I just spent a year at home with a 3 year old and a baby sleepless night, stiper blowouts, long walks in High Park and fourth and 8 30 dinners made up the routines of my days, as I sat on the kitchen floor surrounded by duplo sipping a

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:29:26
Beer from a wine glass, and contemplating making chicken nuggets.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:29:29
Yet again it was hard to fathom that I would soon be jumping back into my research, despite the ups and downs of parenthood.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:29:39
I loved my time at home with my babies, and as my return date loomed I was both looking forward to returning to the world of adults and dreading the task that laid ahead, writing a dissertation.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:29:49
While continuing to be the primary caregiver of 2 tiny humans

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:29:55
Spoiler, alert, that dissertation was written in very small chunks on my phone in a dark nursery, while holding a sleepy sleeping baby in my arms.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:30:05
But it did get done, and it because apparently those were the only moments of peace and quiet where my brain could actually make connections and phone co form coherent thoughts

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:30:16
I started my Phd. Program on my oldest child was 3 and a half months old.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:30:20
My partner had carried him, and was on maternity leave at the time I was a new parent, and I was.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:30:25
I was grateful for the huge amount of flexibility being a first year, Phd.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:30:29
Student had afforded me course work was a familiar task in the demands of my research program.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:30:33
At that time were manageable

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:30:37
2 moms and a baby spent a lot of time together that first year learning how to be a family, and my Phd.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:30:43
Research actually emerged from that moment in my life. How would this child experience the world?

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:30:48
Leading me to ask the research question, what are the experiences of children with 2 S.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:30:53
Lgbtq parents. So I worked away at my research while my wife and I began planning for baby number 2 I had completed my course.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:31:02
Work past my comps, had my proposal approved and my ethics approved all before.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:31:05
Baby number 2 was born. So it was the perfect moment to hit the pause.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:31:10
Button, and I did. I walked away for a full year, which is like really not something that a lot of people do.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:31:18
I just received a shirk fellowship. I immediately deferred.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:31:21
I wasn't even touching it, and I said, Nope, gonna defer that for a year, and I had committee members that were just shocked that I had even applied for shirk, knowing I was expecting a baby, and I I just wonder again, and again, like still years later would that have been the

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:31:38
Same if I had been a Cis mail. Phd.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:31:41
Candidate applying for funding, or was it because this time I was carrying the baby?

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:31:46
Okay.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:31:48
But I knew I was gonna be home with a baby and a toddler I wasn't gonna be applying while I was on maternity leave, so it made a lot of sense to me to apply now and defer.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:31:57
And that was an option that I wanted to take. But there's no doubt that each time I announced my plans to take a full year off to take a maternity leave, that I was entitled to take the scholarly community was shocked.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:32:10
Wait. You're actually not going to be doing anything for the next year like that was just apparently this was not something that was done I also had a sessional job at the time, and it took some back and forth with the Union, and the department.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:32:23
But I managed to keep my hiring seniority while leaving the department high and dry, for the 4 courses I normally taught.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:32:30
That's something I'm really proud of. I I walked away.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:32:33
I said, I'm you know, even the our jobs are precarious and our incomes are barely above the poverty line.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:32:40
The pressure to produce papers and conference presentations.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:32:42
It's immense, right when you're a grad student or an early career academic.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:32:46
That is the expectation that we are doing this. So walking away, pressing, pause, prioritizing something over our careers is a radical act, you know, I saw people in my Phd cohort travel to conferences and publish papers and traveling wasn't an option I was

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:33:04
pregnant, so I had to find the local conferences.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:33:07
But of course that comparison seeps in. We're academia sets us up to be in competition with those that should be our allies.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:33:17
And so that jealousy, that that feeling of not being good enough, that imposter syndrome

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:33:26
It definitely creeps in, especially when you are taking a slower path.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:33:29
A different path, because you have additional care, responsibilities, but always.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:33:34
And so that would come up, you know, every few months little spiral into an existential crisis.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:33:38
But I just remind myself, you know, I'm on a different path, and it includes tiny humans.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:33:43
And it might take a little longer, and that's so valid.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:33:48
That is valid work

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:33:52
Unlearning the capitalist belief that our careers must be the focus of our adult lives.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:33:57
Is a challenging task, and one that I can continue to grapple with regularly, especially in the Academy.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:34:03
Progress as we understand it, within our higher educational institutions, is a eurocentric notion, prior prioritizing care and caregiving responsibilities.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:34:12
Taste, courage. How would you even suggest it's a queer act of resistance.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:34:18
My youngest was unable to attend day care for a number of reasons.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:34:22
When we pulled them. After a short few weeks I knew I would be extending my defense date.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:34:27
That same child is now struggling in kindergarten, meaning that my editor on my most recent article, has received more than one extension request and that I've had to send grad students to breakout rooms in the middle of a Zoom call just to run to the elementary school and grab

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:34:41
Them in morning. So progress in my career. It looks different progress in my research looks different right now.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:34:50
Have I ruled out doing a postdoc? No, but it's not there yet.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:34:56
Because I choose to be there for this really sweet, sensitive soul

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:35:01
So back to 2,018. Well, had wrapped up everything in a nice bow before I took a year off it meant that I needed to hit the ground running when I came back.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:35:09
Luckily for me, I had started drinking coffee while I'm maternity leave.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:35:13
2 kids will do that to you. But data collection was next in the Phd.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:35:18
Hoop, jumping competition in this case. Data collection first night recruitment.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:35:22
So the 5 19 community center which for those of you, not in Toronto, is the 2 S.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:35:27
Lgbtq community center was running a slam poetry group for children from 2 S.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:35:32
Lgbtq. Families, and of course it was scheduled for time while my partner was at work, and no other child care was available.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:35:40
You can see where this is going. So the baby went in.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:35:41
The carrier, the 3 year old went in the stroller.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:35:44
We took the subway to the village to try to drum up research interest for my research.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:35:50
So as the 3 of us joined, I'm just gonna move you while you're blocking my view.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:35:56
There we go, and the 3 of us joined the youth group so that I could pitch my research project.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:36:00
The filter. The facilitator began with a pronoun, go around and while these have become common practice, especially in queer and trans spaces, in 2,018, it was the first time that my precocious 3 year old had encountered a formal invitation to share pronouns given that

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:36:15
My research was about gender and sexual diversity.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:36:17
We had, of course, had many conversations about gender, and had read all the children's books on the topic, but as my 3 year old introduced himself, and I had to on the fly in front of a room full of potential participants, explain Prometheus, while asking him to describe his gender identity, I felt the

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:36:37
Spotlight, the spotlight shine on the merging of my 2 worlds, the bubble that is my kids and my home life and the activism and education of my professional life.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:36:47
I think his exact words after a very uncomfortable and likely unclear explanation of what was expected to him in that moment were, I feel like a boy today.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:36:57
Okay. We'll take it. So do I recommend taking your young children with you to do recruitment.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:37:04
No, absolutely not, not a recommendation. But I also have no doubt that they're cuteeness drummed up some participants for me that day, so I wasn't just some random person from the University.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:37:15
I was a queer parent, coming to kids with queer and transparent, asking them to come, make art with me.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:37:22
It is this merging of world that continues to be a profound challenge for me as an early career academic anyone that has parented through this pandemic knows that the boundaries between work and home are blurred now more than ever the number of classes I have taught with a toddler curled

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:37:35
up on my chest because they just didn't want to be in a separate space for me over these past few years.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:37:41
As wild. But there is this expectation in academic, in academia that your research is akin to a baby or a child that it requires an incredible amount of dedication of love and ongoing care.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:37:54
But what about those of us that have real life, human children at home, children that carry our entire heart with them when they head off to school?

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:38:01
Or I mean this year, or home from school every other day, because they're sick parents in the room will know what I'm talking about.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:38:09
So I see my research, my teaching as part of my job.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:38:12
It helps pay my bills, put food on the table, and allows my kids to take Karate and guitar lessons.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:38:18
I'm learning to set boundaries around this work to prioritize the things that are more important in my life.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:38:24
This shouldn't be a subversive thought. And yet in Academia it continues to be the expectation that our work is our life.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:38:34
When I was on maternity leave I was left off emails.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:38:37
I missed important conversations, and I was relegated to final our author on articles.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:38:43
But I had to make peace with those choices, because doing it all overrated.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:38:49
And so that's where this idea comes in as a recovering perfectionist.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:38:53
My mantra became. It's good enough when I have given my a lot of time to a presentation, or a paper or lesson prep.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:39:00
It is good enough this dissertation is good enough to get my degree.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:39:04
This paper is good enough to submit for feedback. This presentation is good enough to share with all of you.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:39:09
Could it be more robust, more interactive, more exciting?

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:39:13
I mean, yeah, but it's good enough for the time and energy I had this week.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:39:18
So here you go, you you're welcome for my good enough presentation, my kids are now 5 and 8, so a little bit older than bronze kids, we continue to find ways to prioritize our mental and physical health through this ongoing pandemic and that means a considerable amount of time I'm

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:39:36
At home, and often away from school over the last 3 years.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:39:39
It also means a stall in my research program a long evaluation of whether it is worth taking.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:39:43
The considerable amount of hours needed to apply for tenure track jobs.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:39:48
What is with those they are so long those applications and an ongoing niggling, wondering about whether academia is the right place for me.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:39:57
I'm currently working as a session, and I'm thankful almost daily for the flexibility.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:40:02
So I'm excited to have that conversation around flexibility, because this type of position affords me the ability to be there for my kids when they're sick.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:40:10
When they're doing remote learning, or even just being there at school pickup each day.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:40:16
That means a lot to me to be able to be there for them in those ways.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:40:20
I love my work with my students. I love my research, and I love my teaching.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:40:25
I also love my family, and I don't think these love affairs need to be mutually exclusive. I think it's possible to find balance, but my hope is that those of us choosing a balanced approach to this work aren't considered considered radical or lesser then

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:40:43
When thinking about gender and sexual diversity. I like to believe that we can be both, and rather than either.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:40:50
Or perhaps this is idea is relevant here as well.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:40:52
Can we be both a parent and an academic? Can we love both our work and our kids?

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:40:58
I think the Academy is still figuring out this relationship.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:41:01
But long ago I decided where my priorities lie, and if that means a slower, meandering path, I'm happy to be enjoying the journey

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 11:41:12
And that's it for me

[Michael Ruderman] 11:41:16
And fantastic. Thank you. More than good enough, I would say.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:41:21
Both of our talks so far. That's great.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:41:26
Let's let's move to our final speaker.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:41:29
Who will be Dr. Sarah Flickr? Dr.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:41:33
Flickr is a full professor here at York, in the faculty of environmental and urban change, holding a research chair in community-based participatory research adolescent health, promotion, engaging youth and environmental sexual and reproductive justice, and yes, She's also the

[Michael Ruderman] 11:41:51
Mom of 11 year old Gabriel and 8 year old Gemma, and with that very, very brief intro, let's please.

[Michael Ruderman] 11:41:56
Welcome, Dr. Sarah Clicker.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:42:00
Thanks, all a treat to be here, and I am loving the progression because that feel like well, I have very little new to say after those beautiful presentations, and I feel like I'm having a little Ptsd actually listening to cool.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:42:24
So you're get. I'm gonna see if I can share my screen here.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:42:27
I'm not as we speak, I am. Oh, thank you so much, Michael. Great, perfect!

[Michael Ruderman] 11:42:33
Yes, I'm happy to. I'm happy to pop it

[Sarah Flicker] 11:42:34
I'm glad you're doing that. Not me. Okay.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:42:37
So I'm now in this. The Sandwich stage of elderly parents and middle aged middle career kids.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:42:44
And I'm feeling under the same and some new pressures.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:42:49
I'm here in Montreal, actually helping out my parents are having some health issues.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:42:54
But here today I'm chatting with you about parenting.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:42:58
These are my beautiful kids, April and Gemma, and in preparation for this talk I tried to think back on what it was like to be, and New mom and assistant professor.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:43:10
So I had my kids right when I began my career at York.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:43:15
In in my first couple of years, that this is to Professor.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:43:19
So it's a little bit further along on the academic journey.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:43:22
But lots will resume, I think, from the 2 talks we had to think Michael per perhaps switching the slide here

[Michael Ruderman] 11:43:33
Yes, sorry. 1 s cause I. There we go!

[Sarah Flicker] 11:43:35
Okay. So the first caveat I have is that today I am neither a new mom nor a new professor, so so that these are reflections, I started my job at York in 2,006, and I had it in 2,010 and Gemma, shortly, there after so you're

[Sarah Flicker] 11:43:58
Right. You're getting reflections a little further along the during next slide, please, Michael.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:44:05
So the first reflection is that I and it's already sort of been said.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:44:12
It's never a good time career wise to have a baby, and it gets harder biologically as you get older.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:44:21
And so as someone who I was 35 when I had gave and I was 38 when I had Gemma and lots of medical intervention was required, so that's also something we don't really talk about.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:44:34
A lot is as many of us who pursue academic careers delay having kids and and that comes with his own set of biological challenges.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:44:50
So having health benefits is nice for that, but it that's it's a real thing.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:44:56
And so I guess my advice would be to those contemplating kids.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:45:02
If you want them, go for it. It's gonna be hard whenever you do it.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:45:04
Different, hard, different challenges. Sleep is always going to be an issue.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:45:08
It's probably the most complicated, hard, stressful, tiring, crazy thing I ever did, and also I don't have any regrets.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:45:17
I loved it, and right there's picture here of my cat who's now passed, but having pets is way easier so you just want something free to love like go for the best. But if you do want is like whenever you do, it is gonna be impossible.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:45:36
And wonderful. So next slide, please, Michael, things that make it easier, though I mean having kids is is really challenging.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:45:46
But, as been said by both pan and Broadway, there are things that make it easier, and I and I don't want to minimize that.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:45:57
People make it easier. So if you're lucky enough to have a partner to parent with, that's huge and especially if they're a partner that really wants to part.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:46:08
Be a full partner on parenting. That's amazing. I I do think it's neither surprising it's not surprising at all that we have.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:46:18
We don't have any Cis man on this panel, but I do think you know, it would be interesting to think about like, what does that look like for?

[Sarah Flicker] 11:46:29
For men. But in addition to partners, so whether or not you have a partner, do you have either biological or chosen family?

[Sarah Flicker] 11:46:39
That wants to go on this parenting with you. And where are they located?

[Sarah Flicker] 11:46:43
And although my parents are the most supportive, wonderful, amazing parents they live in Montreal.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:46:49
So that wasn't so easy to get the support.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:46:53
When I had my little people involved in plane right or a car, I so then thank you more expensively about chosen family and building friends and community, and making them become and and making them family.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:47:05
So thinking intentionally about the kinds of support you might have available, and or can cultivate, is huge, and then, of course, there's all the economics supports that have been mentioned.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:47:16
Having job security paid leave whatever that looks like. Those things make it easier.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:47:19
I will say they're neither necessary nor sufficient, or or parenting, and any of these supports, so you can do it all on your own.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:47:27
But it's just harder. And even with all the support of the world, it's still gonna be hard.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:47:33
Oh, next slide, please.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:47:39
What I will say is the days as a new parent are super super long, and that goes back to bronze.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:47:49
Very frank discussion about sleep. And sleep. Deprivation is real.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:47:53
Safe, information is hard, sleep, deprivation makes everything 10 times harder, but the years come by so fast, so fast, and the problems change.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:48:03
But they're still hard, and there is no right or wrong way to do it.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:48:08
So, and I think this is really beautifully echoes Pain.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:48:13
A metaphor of a journey. I I suggest you're to find your own path that feels right to you, and or that you can look at so there's the ideal of like what would be the best way of doing something what is good enough looking what can you do to get through this day this moment.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:48:30
This next 10 min that you can live with, and there is so much to date and so much judgment, and so many shame and blame games around all these like controversial things like sleep, training and feeding, and what you're gonna feed and how you're gonna feed and what you and and by the way

[Sarah Flicker] 11:48:50
The food policing. It starts when they're infants with like, whether or not you breast it and go like my 8 year old.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:48:55
There's still discussions of shame and blame around what people pack and lunches.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:49:00
So discipline. How you just look like there's a 1 million questions you're gonna do it right.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:49:06
And you're gonna do it wrong. 50 50. Find what what you can live with and what it's with your your sense of self and your moral values and pathway.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:49:15
And I think this and this goes again for your academic career, which is the next slide.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:49:20
Please. Academic work much like child Re. Learning can feel, never ending, and all consuming.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:49:28
And you could spend 24 7 on your career in the same way as you could send twenty-four-seven.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:49:33
Being a parent with the same, I think the same fundamental rules apply about finding the path that feels right to you, and or that you can live with.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:49:42
And this goes for everything from what does productivity mean to you?

[Sarah Flicker] 11:49:46
It would be nice to have this year. What do I need to do this year?

[Sarah Flicker] 11:49:50
And you know, if we think of the good enough mantra like, how do we?

[Sarah Flicker] 11:49:55
Set goals and round prioritizing what must get done for what might be nice to get done, and setting really clear boundaries around that, and learning to say no, which can be really really hard, especially for, especially for women and female socialized people, and especially when you're in an early career, position, and you want to

[Sarah Flicker] 11:50:17
Take advantage of every opportunity. It's impossible to do it all.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:50:22
So next please. Here I I sat down and tried to think of.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:50:27
Okay, what are some helpful or unhelpful tips that I would offer my past self?

[Sarah Flicker] 11:50:34
And I think the idea of knowing yourself and being honest with what what you can do and what you can't do.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:50:45
Is it something that took me a minute to sort out so examples of knowing myself?

[Sarah Flicker] 11:50:49
I am not a morning person, I will never be a morning person.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:50:53
I had this fantasy at times in my life that maybe if I woke up earlier I could get the work out in, or maybe if I woke up earlier I could get some quiet writing in like just no, I I I can't. I can't do it. Early.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:51:07
But I can do it late at night. So this is an example of knowing myself.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:51:11
I spend an alarm for 5, 6, or 2, 7 in the morning is not gonna help me be more productive, but I often know that if I can carve it 10 or 11 at night, I can get stuff that so I think it took me it took me.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:51:25
A minute to just get coffee with that with myself, but it's it's good to know.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:51:29
So who, whatever you are, whatever kind of person you are, knowing, what you need to know, the other thing, and I really appreciate this.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:51:35
The Pants. Presentation is like showing all those great pictures of taking your kids 2 places.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:51:41
I think making kids visible is really important. I think over the pandemic, especially people were people were afraid to show their kids, but they had to be visible in a way that I think because so many of us were struggling at home alone.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:51:58
You know, with our kids and there there was no child care.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:52:03
But I love bringing my kids, and I think both Pam and Bronman talked about how bringing your kids can build empathy can can show, especially if you're doing community-based research can build bridges I do a lot of work with indigenous communities.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:52:18
And it's actually considered would not to bring your kids like when you don't bring your kids.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:52:23
They wonder what's wrong with you or them. So I think, finding ways to bring to bring kids into your work life.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:52:33
And being invisible, can help alleviate a lot of stress for everybody involved.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:52:38
And I often now I say to all my grad students, I'll always all my students.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:52:43
Actually, I say, your kids are welcome in my classrooms, and I think, as a more senior person.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:52:50
Now, and that has the luxury to to find the space.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:52:56
I always make it explicit like we're at the beginning of a course.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:53:01
If you have kids feel free to bring them. If you need to they're having a challenge day, or you're having a challenge, or you have no child.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:53:05
Care. I would rather you bring whoever it is here, and we'll find a truck, or I will hold them while I lecture and give you a break, or we will.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:53:15
We will figure it out. There's enough of us here to to create communities of care, and I would like to see that becoming more and and I think the more we model it to each other the more the easier it becomes when you need to bring your kid that you feel safe doing again.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:53:35
This notion of like say, yes, a lot of things that bring you joy and energy I'd say no, to.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:53:42
It's okay to say, no, and I think it's way better.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:53:46
Actually to say no upfront, or I can't then to commit to doing things that are going to cause you tremendous stress and mental health challenges, and or to let a team down like cause you can't actually do it and I've had this experience.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:54:03
Myself where I will say yes to things, and I'm like, why did I just do that?

[Sarah Flicker] 11:54:07
And I can't do that. I don't have the capacity to do that, and it feels way worse later on.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:54:12
Have to back out so kind of learning to to say no, and setting realistic goals and batteries.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:54:18
Okay, this might be the most important tip I can offer, and it's very pragmatic.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:54:24
And it's about being creative with the clock in the calendar.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:54:28
So what do I mean by this? Hi, Brian, I'm not a morning person.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:54:35
I'm a night person. I know I can be productive at that time of day, and I know it's a time of day like late at night, and I know it's a time of day when my kids are sleeping.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:54:44
So I have rearranged my whole work. Calendar.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:54:50
So that as often as humanly possible I am home like 3, 30.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:54:55
I want to be home when my kids get home, and from 3, 30 to 8, 30 as often as possible.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:55:02
It's not always possible, but I really try hard to protect 3, 30 to 8 30.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:55:08
That's my kids. And then at 8 30, when I put my youngest to bed, I go back to work.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:55:12
So I am often at my desk, 8, 30 to 1111, 30, and I'm checking emails and responding, I'm doing my lecture notes.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:55:24
And I consciously built in that trade. So I know that means that I often have to leave York at 2 30 in the afternoon.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:55:32
So I could be home at 3 30, and that is a very truncated workday.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:55:35
But because we have this flexibility built in, I can then return, and I had the luxury to do that, partly because now my kids sleep.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:55:42
So I'm not again exhausted. At 1130, partly because I I I do have more flexibility over my schedule.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:55:48
But it's something I've been very transparent about with the people who schedule my classes with my Dean, with people I work with on my work teams, and I think the nice thing about Zoom.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:56:01
And the pandemic has built in more opportunities for asynchronous work and finding ways.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:56:07
So people know, like they'll work on until 5. They'll send me something.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:56:09
I will do my part. Later in the evening, and it will be ready for someone else in the morning.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:56:13
But I think kind of building in your schedule and your calendar with what works for your Circadian rhythms, what works for your family, what works?

[Sarah Flicker] 11:56:24
And now that my kid is 11 and wants to go to bed later, I have to have a real talk with him about how actually, even though you're awake.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:56:33
Still, mommy's not available after 8 30 people have to go to work cause I was home making a snack when you came home.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:56:39
So it's a bit of a different conversation as the kids get older.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:56:41
But they get it now, too. They're like, Oh, yeah, yeah, he's going back to work.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:56:45
And they see that as and similarly, the calendar basically longer than it should have to realize.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:56:55
But I'm looking enough to have an amazing partner, and even in with the most feminist of intentions we have still fallen into some pretty gender categories that we we keep returning to to try to resist but one of the things that really helped undo a lot of this was creating a

[Sarah Flicker] 11:57:16
shared family calendar, and this meant that any activity that the children have our input.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:57:22
And into the share tap family calendar, and we assign a parent to be the lead parents on that activity.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:57:30
So if April has coffee on Mondays and Thursdays and Saturdays, never be a hockey, mom, it's the worst.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:57:37
But if you, if you happen to have that, then I know that on Monday nights Gabriel Hockey is my problem.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:57:42
On Thursday night. Gabriel's coffee is Eric's problem, and on Saturday we ultimate who's problem?

[Sarah Flicker] 11:57:49
It is. I'm when you are the lead. Parent is your job to figure out how they're gonna get there to remind the child to find their own equipment to you.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:57:59
You're the lead parent. So that's the cognitive load of thinking about it.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:58:02
It's doors, and and that doesn't mean you can't ask for help.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:58:06
It doesn't mean you take it back up. It doesn't mean but I think finding a way to be really transparent about division of labor, and it doesn't all land on one person caught like either cognitively or physically because for a long while even if I knew Eric was taking on

[Sarah Flicker] 11:58:21
Thursday, I had to stay to him. Hey? Tonight is hockey.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:58:24
Don't forget to tell Gabriel and I was like, I don't want to be the micro manager.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:58:28
Let Google take this over for us to do some of those executive functioning.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:58:32
So I'd say, thinking about your clock and your calendar, and your division of labor as a family or computer, or a unit of like a parenting hack has been huge for helping me think about how to reorganize my life so that I can both be present when I feel it's so important

[Sarah Flicker] 11:58:50
To be present, and also to be absent when I feel that's important to the absent, either to do the amazing things that I love that Brahma talked about like reading a book or taking time for myself, a building in my own recreational time that doesn't like calendar too in there so

[Sarah Flicker] 11:59:08
That's clear for everyone. And now that my 11 year old has his own devices, he is on the family calendar, so he can actually see when mummy is blocked off, and it's the do not disturb moment.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:59:20
And the last point which I think has been raised and I'm going to reiterate is to actively Boston supportive communities at work and at home.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:59:27
And to ask for help, and one of the that's things I ever done is to really see the other parents in my kids lives as extended family.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:59:44
So we have Whatsapp groups. And it's like when somebody goes to hockey or gymnastics.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:59:50
It's like, it's a group problem where we have.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:59:52
We figured out carpooling. We figured, we text each other all the time.

[Sarah Flicker] 11:59:56
We borrow equipment from each other. We, you know, will, so it's not just any more like me and my partner, but we now have community of parents, but so around our children that we lean on extremely heavily within each other's lives.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:00:13
And the pandemic, like, destroyed so much of that social fabric and social support and we've been actively rebuilding it.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:00:19
But I think intentionally building in those supports, particularly if you don't have nearby family to lean on, has been a tremendous value to us, and I would say similarly, in my career, work intensively fostering community with my phone stocks.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:00:40
With my graduate students, with my colleagues and building research teams that are as much about producing great work is about creating a community of care with each other so that we can be there for each other.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:00:51
When our kids get sick, or you know, you need someone to back you up at a conference like has been really important to me in the way that I I build my lab.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:01:01
So that's nice students, and my training is no, that were there as more than just intellectual supports were there at humans for Hs.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:01:13
So next, please, okay. So oh, we all turn a lot of pictures of our kids smiling and laughing at parenting.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:01:26
Is not all smiling and laughing. There are full grown tantrums, there are.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:01:31
Colicky children. Both my kids have learning exceptionalities that require a lot of supports and interventions, and, like psychologists, visits.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:01:46
And and it's not easy, but that's it.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:01:49
You you can do it, you don't have a choice one once they're out in the world, you must do it.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:01:54
You will do it, and my mantra is in these hard moments, when it is like screaming or losing their mind is this, 2 shall pass.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:02:02
I am not alone, there is help. And who can I reach out to for help?

[Sarah Flicker] 12:02:08
And so so finding those but those people, whether they are people, you pay in terms of getting kind of professional services or people you love, or people.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:02:21
You are fostering community with like, find your people and because they're there, and we're here.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:02:29
And we've got to do this together. So I think that concludes my presentation right?

[Sarah Flicker] 12:02:36
Yes, and I just. It's a huge shadow.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:02:40
It's like this is my partner. He was absent from a lot of the presentation, but as I was like, I was like, he is a huge reason that I can do so much of the work that I do in the way that I do it, and I do think no matter.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:02:53
Who whether whether you are partnered or not, partnered like shouting out to the community of people that help you succeeded.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:03:01
Life is just a really important thing to good. Thanks

[Michael Ruderman] 12:03:11
Fantastic. Thank you. Thanks to all 3 of our presenters, and that's the time I think we can open the floor to questions again.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:03:21
I'll just. That's one last time if people are okay.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:03:23
If I record starting now for the Q. A. Okay. Great.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:03:29
Let me finally

[Michael Ruderman] 12:03:33
The button record

[Michael Ruderman] 12:03:37
Okay, great. So, yeah, if anyone has any comments feel free to

[Michael Ruderman] 12:03:46
To raise a hand, go and just adjust this here

[Michael Ruderman] 12:03:52
Well, I I wanted to ask about the flexibility to just bring that up again and think a little more about that, because sometimes when I think about flexibility and academic life, it can turn into unpredictability or I know some people talking about academic, like become about consuming, it's like

[Michael Ruderman] 12:04:10
The fact that it's so flexible. It starts to sort of seek into all the cracks of your life, and then it becomes everything.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:04:17
So I I wonder if you I don't know if you have any reflections on that. I know.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:04:21
Dr. Flickr's idea. You know you can use the flexibility to create a kind of structure for yourself.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:04:27
That that sounded a feeling to me. But I don't know anyone else had any thoughts about that

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:04:36
I I can just jump in. I I think, just to say first, I really appreciate both those presentations that was so validating, and I think Dr.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:04:49
Flickr. Sarah, your experience is is sort of like what I and it's like seeing the bigger or like the longer journey.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:04:59
And I think that that is what I why, you know why we stay engaged in this process, because I think there are very few careers that allow that maybe more, maybe more. Now, post pandemic.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:05:10
But that like it's truly you'd set your own schedule, and you can negotiate that in, I think, in a way that is not as possible.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:05:19
I think it again back to sort of the very personal side of things.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:05:24
What I've observed is that my partner, who has a very he has a very conventional line to 5.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:05:29
He works in like local government, so he has that. And then there's like a there's like a way in which he's chained to his teams. Chats.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:05:38
But what I've observed is, he has. He has the there's my!

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:05:46
There's like so many clearer boundaries between his work and his personal life, and he has things like when he has to take sick days, which are have been constant as we've all sort of alluded to.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:05:58
He continues to earn an income, he continues to get a pension.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:06:03
He continues to, and the pressures like he's in a very supportive environment.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:06:09
I would say it's not typical of all kinds of jobs like that, whereas I felt sort of the opposite of this kind of like, like free floating, precarious lack of security and sense of like, if I'm not working, I'm not you know I'm not getting the line.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:06:23
On the Cv. I'm not like. It's putting me further away.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:06:27
So for me, and I'm like, well, then, you can catch up on the weekend, or you can catch up when the kids are napping, or you can catch up at this time.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:06:34
It it, but I think it's a very specific time, bounded sort of combination of being both and postpartum like that first year of a baby, plus the compounded caregiving of like the post covid world.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:06:51
So you have pain for full-time, child care. But my kids are home 2 weeks a month, basically, plus the postdoc.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:06:59
So I'm in the last year of a funded postdoc, and the pressure to like, get employee like get a job is is, you know, has only increased.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:07:06
I feel like. So those commonations. I think that's where I kind of Hi, I I struggle with flexibility, but then I see what like I see the folks that have the jobs and are able to negotiate that.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:07:19
And that is like so appealing to be able to set your own schedule and boundaries

[Sarah Flicker] 12:07:26
And I think it's really important to hold them firm, like I have been in meetings where I needed to excuse myself and look sorry, like child cares.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:07:27
I guess

[Sarah Flicker] 12:07:36
You know, I thought I'd make a deadline by child care, you know, and I had a colleague who was just like, I just need you to stay for 10 more minutes, and I said to him, like, There is a to this like someone at the other end has to stay later, in her job if I

[Sarah Flicker] 12:07:52
don't and he blew money at me. He's like, here's $20 to pay for the extra, and it was.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:07:57
It was so shockingly insulting, like an awful, but it was kind of great that it happens in public, because I had been feeling the microaggressions for a really long time, and I was just like, I don't even know how to explain it and then when he took out his wallet and threw a 20

[Sarah Flicker] 12:08:16
at me in front, in like front. And then this was like in my first year as a profess, like a professor in the department.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:08:22
So now I don't think what happened to me today, but at the time I was definitely felt, and I just had, like, you know, thanks for the offer.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:08:32
But I got, I gotta go. Yeah, you, you know. So I think it it'd be hard to hold firm.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:08:33
But I'm leaving that

[Sarah Flicker] 12:08:40
The like, even when you create the boundaries to hold firm to them, and you have to keep raising it like I think I feel like especially colleagues with young kids.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:08:56
But I always say, keep reminding us. Keep reminding us like you know and I know it's exhausting to always have to remind, but it will keep the top of my hand, and I think it is in our like our department.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:09:06
Is. A is a great department, but we've done a lot of work around.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:09:11
You know, creating carries for people so especially over the pandemic.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:09:17
There was a list, people who volunteered to come pitch, hit any lecture that you couldn't make because you had a kid who, just, you know, and who would offer it to like either babysit or guest lecture for you, or take over grading like we we kind of intentionally created news there are in

[Sarah Flicker] 12:09:34
Our department. And I think we just need to like do more of that.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:09:38
No! Roll that out

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:09:43
I find it so like as someone who is in the postdoc at the job, I find it so.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:09:49
It's so great to hear that experience, because I find whenever I whenever someone's like oh, I can't meet with you at this time, because childcare or oh, I have to postpone our meeting because my kids home set like, I'm like thank you so much because sometimes I feel like

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:10:05
Children are so invisible, and children are invisible, and caregiving is invisible, and you have to you.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:10:10
It's hard to understand how you should position yourself sometimes in that world, of how you set your own boundaries when you're on the outside, or like the edge I don't know what a postdoc is.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:10:21
Finish outish. So yeah, that's great to hear

[Michael Ruderman] 12:10:26
Daniel, I see your hands up

[Danielle Christie] 12:10:30
Thank you. Oh, yeah, Bronwin, Pam Sarah.

[Danielle Christie] 12:10:34
This. Thank you very much for coming here and talking to us today, because so the full time I'm gonna start with an anecdote, I don't even know if I have a question per second.

[Danielle Christie] 12:10:43
But my mom, like mother for one kid, has an exceptionality, and I remember when she had to kind of basically go on leave for a number of very valid issues, and she got those accommodations.

[Danielle Christie] 12:11:02
But I remember when she came back she was telling me about how, when she spoke to her friends, her colleagues at work, she got the sense that people were judging her, and how she was received kind of made her feel like she had to self-silence, and I think that's really interesting because like from

[Danielle Christie] 12:11:24
the jump Bron, when you're talking about like yes, there are concrete things that that we can employ that can definitely help.

[Danielle Christie] 12:11:32
I mean, things are still still can feel impossible, but I think what you all touch on is like, I'm big.

[Danielle Christie] 12:11:40
Problem is how we're thinking about it. And the psychosocial effects of like the relationality piece, like you are doing all of the thinking about these things and as we've been talking about like thinking in academia, we especially know this is a form of labor.

[Danielle Christie] 12:12:03
And so I don't know if that speaks to to you folks, but it was something that I thought of very often.

[Danielle Christie] 12:12:11
You were talking

[Michael Ruderman] 12:12:22
Thank you. Accountant

[Michaela Hynie] 12:12:26
I also want to say, thanks to to Pam Braman, to Sarah, for for this really interesting conversation, and one of the reasons I wanted to record, it is because I'm concerned that so much of the pressure to carve out that space and to make the work of parenting visible falls on the

[Michaela Hynie] 12:12:46
parents, the people doing the parenting and and we shouldn't be in a system that regularly forgets that there are people who have to go home to give their kids snacks who can't just take weekends off because their kids have to go play hockey and I'll be honest that I'm

[Michaela Hynie] 12:13:03
I've been a little frustrated that our area wants to hold their area meetings in the evenings during the week it's like, well, that's great.

[Michaela Hynie] 12:13:09
But if somebody has kids, they either have to find some way to find somebody to take care of those kids while they show up to those meetings, or they have to constantly excuse themselves from participation, and that that shouldn't be their responsibility should be our responsibility to think about are we creating a space where

[Michaela Hynie] 12:13:31
Oh, a lot of people who have these responsibilities are able to participate fully without having to make exceptions or ask for exceptions.

[Michaela Hynie] 12:13:40
Because if you're always having to ask for exceptions, you are stigmatize through the process of asking.

[Michaela Hynie] 12:13:44
We pretend that we're accommodating, but we shouldn't have to be accommodating should have a system that makes those spaces.

[Michaela Hynie] 12:13:51
So I guess. What are your recommendations to departments, to programs to, you know, not even at the institutional level, because those policies are in place, but at the the more micro level, where we get to make those policies? Ourselves.

[Michaela Hynie] 12:14:09
What would you recommendations be to make those more supportive, to make those accommodating without having to demand that people ask for those accommodations

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:14:23
I I think, hybrid options for any meetings like the pandemic has shown us that we can attend through zoom and when I'm in a zoom call, it means that I can have my kids here if I don't have another child care Option, I can make it work, I know know how to

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:14:39
Do that, and like pre-pandemic. That wasn't a thing.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:14:42
So if you're having a meeting that is consistently in the evening, if it can have a hybrid online option, that alone is just such a an incredible gift as a parent, I prefer not to have meetings during that time like much like Sarah.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:14:57
I end my day. At 30'clock as much as possible, so that I can go to school, pick up and come home and do a snack.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:15:05
And so, yeah, I I I don't know. There's so many different things.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:15:10
This is being considerate of of. And it's not just parenting like there's so many caregiving responsibilities that people have beyond their jobs or beyond their degrees, that they're working towards.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:15:23
So at the policy level. That's a I don't know.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:15:25
I'd have to think a little bit more about policy any thought

[Sarah Flicker] 12:15:29
I would say, no tonight meetings like that. Expectation is like

[Sarah Flicker] 12:15:37
Ludicrous for unemployed, but, but, like the only time I will do night meetings is if I'm working with research participants who have full time jobs elsewhere, and I am accommodating or like I work with you.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:15:53
So we have we can't see them during school hours, so the only time that I will do weekend or night is, for in that instance.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:15:59
But if you're asked me to be somewhere consistently once a month at night, like no or no, so it seems like I love the idea of all we hybrid hybrid has changed my life, especially cause.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:16:15
I feel like much like Pan and Browen. If someone used to have a sniffle, I sent them school.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:16:20
You can't do that anymore in our current landscape, like, if you've got a sniffle even if it's like not like you.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:16:28
Just stay home and sore throats seem to last forever, you know, wherever. So, like, all of a sudden, what used to be, maybe, if they, you know, like a one day at home is now 2 week at home.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:16:41
So that means if we don't have hybrid options

[Sarah Flicker] 12:16:46
Have any parenting person can participating half the time

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:16:51
Well, I think about that. So I work with in pre-service and in service teachers.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:16:55
And when I'm working with the in-service teachers like they're in school when my kids are in school.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:16:58
So if I'm working with them, it is in the evenings, and I've had so many back and forth, each with my department, every single time that it comes up to be like.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:17:08
No, I need this to be online. I am not coming in to teach a class from 5 to 8 pm. Once a week.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:17:14
That's not. I'm not available at that time in that way, but I can continue to teach it for you in an online space, because that allows me to create time and energy that definitely can connect with them during that time.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:17:27
But it doesn't have to be the full 3 h, because we can do asynchronous stuff.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:17:29
We can do a lot of. There's all these other tools that have come up so I think that the pandemic has given us this option.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:17:36
That is, we need to continue to utilize. We need to just realize what works about.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:17:41
What of these new tools? There's so many ways that we can teach and engage online.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:17:48
And I actually love teaching online. I absolutely adore it. I didn't know that pre-pandemic.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:17:53
I used to teach theater in a studio. There was a way we could do that online.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:18:00
But we figured it out, and sometimes classes are better online.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:18:00
Some of them are better in person, but some are better online and having that option available even to sessionals. To say which modality do you want to offer your course in? That's the type of flexibility that is incredibly helpful

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:18:17
Yeah. It's hard to know what the Department level or the institution, or like that level for me.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:18:23
I see it as like the solutions or some of the things are, are bigger and more structural, which maybe means they're harder to address.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:18:31
But I mean certainly, having advocates or people, you know, like Sarah in departments who are, who are modeling like I have caregiving responsibilities.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:18:41
These are my boundaries, and I'm doing it is comforting to know that that's happening, because it says there's like a maybe not a culture there, but at least advocates within the system who get it and are moving towards it.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:18:54
I was. I remember going back to my grad program because I was living in Calgary.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:18:58
I went back to Ubc, and I was like as pregnant as you can be.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:19:05
And still fly so like 36 weeks or something, and so very pregnant.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:19:11
And I remember it to this talk, and it was my whole faculty.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:19:15
Like everyone who was in the program, was in, and no one commented on the fact that I was having a baby out of.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:19:21
I think some sort of professionalism and respect right? You never want to assume.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:19:27
But it was like I was so pregnant I was waddling around, and at the same time I was doing research with the Syrian community in Calgary.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:19:34
Everybody's coming up, touching the belly, trying to figure out if it's a boy or girl.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:19:37
What's happening. You win, and this, and then giving me herbs and things and you know, and it's just like academia, as weird in a way that other places, I think, are not about sometimes these things cause I think there's still this culture of sort of like white male hetero normativity that

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:19:55
Just permeates things, and so heaven forbid we should acknowledge the pregnant lady right?

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:20:02
It's there's a weirdness there. So at the I I worry about like kind of those working on the individuals within the system, but saying more like like the funding thing is very real.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:20:13
It's and not is an impact on people who have caregiving responsibilities as well as many other people.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:20:20
Right like it's. It's more pernicious in a way.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:20:24
Well, alright, I can identify, because I might also have a huge child Care Bill every month, and I need my kids in child care.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:20:31
Other people maybe can do this work without it. But I need my kids in paid jobs, care, and even then it's like not enough with the illnesses.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:20:40
So, but to pay for child care to pay rent, to buy groceries like that.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:20:46
The funding is not working, and so and that's been identified by lots of folks outside of these.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:20:51
This specific conversation. So to me, like, that is an area where, if we want to support people who parent and academia, we need to address that part because no funding will not make everything easier.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:21:05
But it creates choices for you that otherwise don't.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:21:11
And it also, I think there's a vulnerability question, whereas if you're in a if you're a person who is relying on your partner to provide for your life, your your but that's like not a great that's a vulnerability for for folks, and I

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:21:27
Think that that is not really addressed or acknowledged.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:21:31
Again, I have a super supportive and amazing partner who does tremendous amount of Co.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:21:34
-parenting. But at the end of the day I do have the more flexible schedule I do have the I'm bringing in less income.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:21:41
So a lot of the when the kids are homesick, it's me who's taking care of them right?

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:21:45
Because of that difference. So I think we need structural issue, like structural interventions that address some of those things like funding

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:21:55
I also wonder what that in terms of you know that security that comes with a full time tenure track job that both you and I had bronze and don't have in this moment, in our careers, you know there's this added expectation that we're just going to uproot our family and travel

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:22:09
across the country, because that's where the job is. And for so many of us, that's not realistic to think about leaving our care systems in order to pursue a position that might be in a different part of the country, or in a different country altogether and so that then becomes of this job search becomes

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:22:27
Incredibly limited in where we're willing to move, or so that at kind of a large institutional level is highly problematic.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:22:37
As a field right like, how do we? How do we navigate this?

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:22:42
And I don't have an answer to that. But I think about that a lot, and being like well, no, I you know I really love the community that I live in the city that I live in.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:22:49
And how do I find work that allows me to be here right now?

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:22:52
I commute from golf to Toronto, which is not terrible, but and luckily, and so than Ontario.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:22:57
There's tons of universities, but still like how amazing would it be to be working in the same city that I live in, or for you to be able to attend, you know, and do your postdoc and down the street, and be able to pop in or something like that, it's it's a

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:23:13
Really interesting system that is set up that doesn't expect that we are rooted in community.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:23:19
But we are at least I am. I want to be close to my parents.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:23:22
I want them to be able to come in and hang out with the kids, etc., etc.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:23:30
Thank you. I'm I'm conscious of our time.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:23:32
And we have 2 more hands. So so why don't we?

[Michael Ruderman] 12:23:35
Why don't we get to those? But this has been incredibly useful in those correct.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:23:39
On this sort of small. Little. How we structure our colloquia, at least going going forward to so this has been a great conversation.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:23:48
Michael! Go ahead!

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:23:49
Hi! Y'all thank you so much for your respective presentations, not just for the information, but also just the vulnerability de put not only photos, but to share them to share the not so wonderful times as a parent, especially to a group of people.

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:24:08
You probably haven't. I mean, I'm sure you know some of us, but for at least people with me I've never met you before, and you still share these moments.

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:24:14
So thank you for that, like something that was brought up.

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:24:18
By all of you in different ways, was just kind of like these.

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:24:21
Gender expectations that you kind of have to confront as a parent within academia, and also just generally within the workplace, and as someone who is cisgender mail.

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:24:39
There I heard these different things, and maybe some of you can talk about it either with your own partner or maybe with someone that you've known when in the workplace, who is also Cisgender.

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:24:49
But also, sister in their mail, but I've heard this idea, though, like yes, men are afforded it's just no more for more leeway in terms of like what they do and acknowledge.

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:25:02
But I've also heard it's like there's this expectation that you're not gonna be there for the kid that you know you're not expected to do that you know, you're supposed to be the one working while you know your other partner isn't and that's very

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:25:15
Scary for me, because, as someone who's most likely in a relationship gonna be making less money, especially early on in career, I guess I'm sitting here going well, I and like I don't know along with it, explanation.

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:25:30
And you know same stuff. But guessing your experience, has it been easier or really tough for assist gender meant to get things like paternity leave and things like that, I guess, because I wanna be there for my kids when I have them?

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:25:49
But you know it seems like there might be system setup to help me with that, or absolutely against that.

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:25:56
Sorry for rambling.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:26:02
The good news in Canada is it's called parentally, not maternal.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:26:08
Leave. And you as a parent, are entitled legally to enjoy that leave, or at least with that, leave up in any way, shape or form, that you and your partner would like to do it, whether you are in a same sex or different sex relationship.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:26:24
You can sort that out. And actually, I have a colleague who had.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:26:31
He had kids exactly the same time that I did both times, and his partner was in grad school.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:26:40
I'm a grad student. And he took with the full parental leave both times, because get a paid position that allowed him to do it like it was just such a a no brainer.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:26:52
So I think I think the more actually, I think it's amazing that you are excited to take that responsibility.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:26:59
And step up in that way, and I, and make it visible in the same way that I would say to any other colleague to make it visible, make it visible that you are the primary caregiver, and that this is important, and I think the more is this men that do show up and make it

[Sarah Flicker] 12:27:13
Visible, the more normalized it will be. But all of us should be able to show up and make it visible.

[Sarah Flicker] 12:27:19
Oh, that would

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:27:19
I saw I saw I saw a meme the other day, and it was something like, you know.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:27:27
2 professors had their kids home sick, right? And one of them was deemed, you know, a great parent, and the other one was deemed to be.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:27:40
I'm professional, and the difference was their gender. They brought their kids to the lecture right?

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:27:44
So these 2, these 2 props bring their kids to lecture because their kids are homesick.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:27:48
One is the best parent, one is unprofessional, and it's based solely on gender.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:27:54
And you can guess that like it was the the male professor that is is deemed to be the great parent for bringing their kid to class with them, but I'll say, like in my experience in academia, with people being visible with their kids very rarely has it been Cisco and I

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:28:13
Think that that needs to be challenged, I think. Yes, show up with that baby carrier on we don't need to be the only ones that all of a sudden are like.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:28:21
Have that baby on our back, or have that Bb in our tummy.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:28:24
I just I rely heavily on the carrier, especially if I'm going into a a work space because it means that the baby is contained, and I have my hands free, and I can think so.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:28:33
I'm just thinking, Carrier, but be be present. I love that advice.

[Pam Baer (they/she)] 12:28:38
Sarah like. Just show up and show up with those with those little ones, because we need to see more of that

[Michael Ruderman] 12:28:48
Thank you. Oh.

[Michael Stead (He/Him)] 12:28:49
Thank you.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:28:52
Let's turn to Julie for our last question, for common

[Julie Conder] 12:28:58
I will be super fast. I I'm cognizant of the time, too, and it really is more of a comment.

[Julie Conder] 12:29:03
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for sharing these experiences.

[Julie Conder] 12:29:05
You know, we really don't talk about this a whole lot, except with other parents.

[Julie Conder] 12:29:10
So it's very cool to see this happening in sort of a more colloquial space.

[Julie Conder] 12:29:14
So much of what all of you said, resonated so much with me.

[Julie Conder] 12:29:16
I had my daughter during Phd. As well. I think it was third year Phd.

[Julie Conder] 12:29:21
I was 35. So a lot of the stuff that many of you were talking about in Bronx. I'm sorry I missed the first bit of your talk.

[Julie Conder] 12:29:26
I had another meeting that I was at, but so much of it resonated, and I was interviewed on a poker for this recently, and and, Pam, what you were talking about with good enough.

[Julie Conder] 12:29:35
I think that was the thing that resonated most, because I was asked.

[Julie Conder] 12:29:38
You know. How do you manage? You know this parenting of a small child?

[Julie Conder] 12:29:42
And then also, you know, the work that you're doing in academic settings.

[Julie Conder] 12:29:45
And I'm an associate professor now. But at the time I was like new on the tenure track, and so it was very challenging, and I said, You know, I think what I I what I do is I do a C job at everything.

[Julie Conder] 12:29:55
And it really was good enough, and you know, whereas before we were we're taught to maybe feel ashamed of.

[Julie Conder] 12:30:00
Our C is like it got done. It's a pass, you know.

[Julie Conder] 12:30:03
Sees get to get degrees. Here we are, and so like, when there is more time, then you can focus on growing those those resources and systems.

[Julie Conder] 12:30:09
But when it is a sort of survival situation, you do what you need to do to get it done, and I appreciate so much, all of you sharing about what you've gone through as well, because, as many of you have mentioned, it's not very visible, and I appreciate the efforts in making it more

[Julie Conder] 12:30:23
So that's all.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:30:27
Yes, I'll let go that. Thank you all so much for coming and sharing.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:30:32
That was really really wonderful. And I'm glad we're able to record a Q&A, and and I think, yeah, I think this is really fruitful and all people game gain a lot from it.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:30:41
So thank you, and and I think that's it.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:30:45
Unless anyone has any perving comments, or or anything like that.

[Michaela Hynie] 12:30:50
I guess I would just ask if there can we reflect on?

[Michaela Hynie] 12:30:54
Maybe emailing the speakers about this, too, about how to maybe make this more visible, because the if we're gonna see change at the level of departments of area.

[Michaela Hynie] 12:31:06
In other words, the people who who don't think this is important enough to show up.

[Michaela Hynie] 12:31:10
I kinda like them to be forced to read these resources or to learn about this, or to hear about this, or to think about this, because it's because they don't think about it, that this keeps happening, and that people have to keep fighting to be to make it visible, we shouldn't have to fight to make

[Michaela Hynie] 12:31:27
It visible. It should just be understood, or at least discussed.

[Michaela Hynie] 12:31:33
Sorry. I read

[Michael Ruderman] 12:31:34
No, yeah, I, I, completely, completely, agree. And I'm glad we have some of this recorded, too, to to distribute.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:31:43
But there's probably more active way that we could.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:31:46
We could get people's ears on this. So I'd love to connect over email to if if if I can be looped in on that, too. That'd be great.

[Bronwyn Bragg] 12:31:54
Thanks for organizing this and including us. So I really appreciated it

[Michael Ruderman] 12:32:00
Great. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming that's that's it.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:32:04
I'll see you later, and and have a great day.

[Michael Ruderman] 12:32:09
Hi! Everybody!

[Michael Ruderman] 12:32:13
I should save the transcript